I'm not sure I can accurately predict the content of Popeye's response to your proposition, but I think I may be able to characterize the nature via this famous exchange from the 1980 film starring Robin Williams:
Popeye: I'm your one and only exspring. See, we got the same bulgy arms.
Poopdeck Pappy: No resemblance.
Popeye: We-we got the same squinky eye.
Poopdeck Pappy: What squinky eye?
Popeye: That's going to be hard for you to see. Oh, we even got the same pipe, Pap.
Poopdeck Pappy: You idiot, you can't inherit a pipe!
Popeye's attempt to link the biological bond between the two men fails in it attachment to abstractions. A DNA test would surely help to move along the ladder towards a comprehensive proof that squinky eyes and bulgy arms are no coincidence at all, but alas he rhetorically settles for the superficial and potentially arbitrary. Indeed his mention of the pipe, bears no fruit in its attachment to appearance-based formulations of a paternal relationship, whereas the common behavioral trait of selecting a pipe as an oral fixation may be a testable premise upon which to base a legitimate claim.
Popeye, like McLuhan, is often more useful as the catalyst for meaningful discussion than the shepherd leading us to our final destination. Hence his invitation to my party. ;)
Thanks Bruce. My happy hour group was sort of a stream of consciousness deal...I thought Kim Jong Il, Popeye, and Prince might have an interesting conversation. Popeye, after all, would supply the fodder for a good mapping conversation. "I am what I am and that's all that I am. I'm Popeye the sailor man."
Glad you got to meet Lance and even more happy that you see promise in him as a leader in general semantics.
Thanks for the kind comment on my writing. I guess I will put the Hayakawa article in the pile to do. Most of it I can take out of my manuscript but it will need a lot of editing. I am hesitant to muddy the waters as I know there are strong supporters of Hayakawa and last year in New York there were some strong words exchanged about him. I was simply disturbed by the difficulty Korzybski had with him and the criticism of Korzybski he and Chase had after Korzybski’s death.
A related topic. Have you seen Keyser’s “Mathematics and the Science of Semantics” article published in 1934? In the second edition of Science and Sanity, I noted the most important absent scientific option was Keyser’s. I also noted that Korzybski commented on some of Keyser’s remarks about the book in a short article. Keyser's article was printed in Scripta Mathematica and is hard to find. I think there may be a copy in a basement library of the math department here are Penn State and have it on my list to make some calls about it. Any comments on that?
I agree Chase was a lightweight, in economics and politics as well as general semantics. But like Hayakawa he was a best-seller lightweight and FDR admired him as a popularize of economics and a supporter of his administration, and of course taking “The New Deal” from him.
Does it matter? Probably not.
Meanwhile I am moving in the direction of launching more activity around local economies. I’m tweaking a little article I’m just going to mail to any person or journal or newspaper I think might be interested.
You know I am eager to see your book but do appreciate the ardor of the work.
Hi Bruce,
Time does fly. Thanks for asking. I've been working the garden (still have some late stuff coming out), working on my local economy idea, trying to get an article on the human potential off my desk, keeping one eye on the campaign and now both eyes on the economy. I've also been pondering the article on Hayakawa and Chase but now see that the most worthy book in the general semantics area gets the Hayakawa award. Since the article deals with their frictions with and criticism of Korzybski I think it might be too volatile, so it sits on the compost heap. I've also been doing some business development and grant writing for a little local engineering startup company. We just won three for three, submitted two more and now the new solicitations are out. Thank goodness I'm retired.
Hi Bruce
Actually, I'm an American who decided it was time for a change. I moved to NZ last December since my old job in Chicago was killing me. I started a philosophy class which lead to me cruising the web one day looking at meditation and language which lead to me finding out about GS. I'm really a novice at this but I'm looking for a group here in Wellington. Surprise!
Gary,
This is probably a symptom of my age and the time when I was emerging from the chrysalis and became a 'butterfly'. It's the music I listened to in HS and College, when we still played records that came in albums with psychedelic covers. Remember them? 8-)
Brain Salad on your accordian?
Awesome!
I feel ashamed to admit that I never heard of Spock's Beard or the Flower Kings. I am familiar with Philbroid Studge though. Weird!
Bruce, Holy Cow on a Bun! ELP??? Who'd a thought!?!?! I noticed that Lance, too, was into prog music. Is this some symptom related to our fascination with things obscure, knotty, and complex? Time to go listen to some Spock's Beard and Flower Kings. Can I learn Brain Salad on the accordion?
Hi Bruce,
I followed Ralph Hamilton's lead, since he had some experience from Millbrook in 1948. I was the assistant at the Yale Seminar in 1948-1949 (winter).
It was my job to post the set-piece diagrams on the blackboard before the first lecture in the morning --although AK did some of the "boiler-plate" drawings himself, just the way he liked them. Then I recorded the lectures and took notes of the actual material covered -- since sometimes AK could wander for hours in reminiscences of his personal life (especially in his last year of life). At Yale AK was under a strait command from Kendig to leave the personal stuff alone. We were relieved that he "followed orders", because he could not have completed the seminar in the limited time otherwise.
At mid-day I would show AK my notes and check off any diagrams on the blackboard he had discussed. It was his call whether to leave the diagram alone or to return to it and "spiral upward another turn" if he thought he might want to discuss some aspect he had not touched on.
At day's end I did a complete recap with AK listening intently and asking questions. He had a very precise mind and remembered his performance in detail if I just gave him a bit of a reminder -- a very easy professor to work with.
When we returned from Yale he and I seem to feel a lot "closer", and he would sometimes stop me briefly when I was on duty and open a conversation with me. He had the habit of treating his young "assistants", somewhat like the (grown) children he never had. He was especially close to D. David Bourland -- feeling that he was "in loco parentis" -- or at least acting that way.
If you look at the main photo of the Yale Seminar, you will note that AK and I were the only ones in the whole group wearing "informal" clothes (no coat and tie).
As I have been studying and learning more, I wondered if ol' Korzybski had had any thoughts on literacy. I look forward to seeing what you share! Most students in my school are capable readers. My problem lies more in tapping their intrinsic motivations. It's a tricky subject because in the way I am talking about, I can't motivate for them, they have to do that themselves.
Bruce,
Maybe I could stretch my poetic muscles a bit,
They are a bit rusty as is my poor 'half' wit!
I'm not sure old Alfred could have approved of my non-A
attempts at my 'free will' cleansings, oh what a F***ing A
I could be in my times of indifference
Time binding and uses of useless inference
Well, it was all self indulgence anyhow,
And I think I traded it all in for some 'Holy' cow!
Now I'm huffing and 'puffing'
watching the daisies glow while the daze stuffing
and grow into the psycho-ceramic sunsets
that describe my ongoing weak attempts or bets
to load as many abstractions as possible onto
a battered and broken semantic differential..........gonetoo!
Yeah, my state is not that 'state',
but that state hoping to attain a 'clean' slate
before expiring or retiring into a well deserved void
.........of course! And so, 'meaningful' poetry, I avoid!
BFree
Bruce,
In the back of my (LSD laced mind!!), I keep tracing threads of GS through what I read and listen to. There may be some scarcity of references to GS / Korzbysky, but They keep turning up in odd places...I'll try to reference them as I can remember or run into them in the future.
GS has been a good 'cleansing' experience for me and keeps me 'honest'! I certainly get 'slopy' in my language sometimes, but most of the Home Farmers catch me at it and bug me to no end! Guess that is hopeful or at least I feel like I've been thrashed by a semantic differential! (Did you know that the Semantic Differential could be used as a weapon!!!)
Shamah..........BFree
Nora, perhaps when you listen to the Jefferson Airplane, you could say "shades of the 13th Floor Elevators." If I'm not wrong, these guys sounded like that before anyone else did.
Boy does that take one back a few decades! I feel pretty sure I never heard these guys at the time, but they certainly have the psychedelic sound down--shades of Jefferson Airplane or any of several other head bands. I don't know why I find it amazing that somebody both knew about Korzybski and played guitar like that! Thanks for the memories, or at least for the thing that evoked them for me. ;-)
"You Don't Know" Lyrics - The 13th Floor Elevators
Hey,
There You are again,
Standing down below me,
Honestly believing that there's something you could show me,
While deep within your mind is what you give to me to know me.
And you don't know,
You don't know,
You don't know how young you are
Her eyes are filled with coral snakes
and liquid plastic castles,
Her daily life revolves around a thousand petty hassles,
Corny dogs and window panes fixed with silver tassels,
And you don't know,
You don't know,
You don't know how young you are
If I knew what's right for you,
you would not think about it,
And if I knew the truth from you,
I'd truly stand and shout it,
There's better things that you could be,
There is no doubt about it
And you don't know,
You don't know,
You don't know how young you are
You don't know (How young you are now)
You don't know (How young you are now)
You don't know (How young you are now)
You don't know (How young you are now)
(Thanks to Jed for these lyrics)
[ You Don't Know (How Young You Are) Lyrics on http://www.lyricsmania.com/ ]
differences that make a difference
Bruce I. Kodish's Comments
Comment Wall (26 comments)
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Popeye: I'm your one and only exspring. See, we got the same bulgy arms.
Poopdeck Pappy: No resemblance.
Popeye: We-we got the same squinky eye.
Poopdeck Pappy: What squinky eye?
Popeye: That's going to be hard for you to see. Oh, we even got the same pipe, Pap.
Poopdeck Pappy: You idiot, you can't inherit a pipe!
Popeye's attempt to link the biological bond between the two men fails in it attachment to abstractions. A DNA test would surely help to move along the ladder towards a comprehensive proof that squinky eyes and bulgy arms are no coincidence at all, but alas he rhetorically settles for the superficial and potentially arbitrary. Indeed his mention of the pipe, bears no fruit in its attachment to appearance-based formulations of a paternal relationship, whereas the common behavioral trait of selecting a pipe as an oral fixation may be a testable premise upon which to base a legitimate claim.
Popeye, like McLuhan, is often more useful as the catalyst for meaningful discussion than the shepherd leading us to our final destination. Hence his invitation to my party. ;)
Glad you got to meet Lance and even more happy that you see promise in him as a leader in general semantics.
Thanks for the kind comment on my writing. I guess I will put the Hayakawa article in the pile to do. Most of it I can take out of my manuscript but it will need a lot of editing. I am hesitant to muddy the waters as I know there are strong supporters of Hayakawa and last year in New York there were some strong words exchanged about him. I was simply disturbed by the difficulty Korzybski had with him and the criticism of Korzybski he and Chase had after Korzybski’s death.
A related topic. Have you seen Keyser’s “Mathematics and the Science of Semantics” article published in 1934? In the second edition of Science and Sanity, I noted the most important absent scientific option was Keyser’s. I also noted that Korzybski commented on some of Keyser’s remarks about the book in a short article. Keyser's article was printed in Scripta Mathematica and is hard to find. I think there may be a copy in a basement library of the math department here are Penn State and have it on my list to make some calls about it. Any comments on that?
I agree Chase was a lightweight, in economics and politics as well as general semantics. But like Hayakawa he was a best-seller lightweight and FDR admired him as a popularize of economics and a supporter of his administration, and of course taking “The New Deal” from him.
Does it matter? Probably not.
Meanwhile I am moving in the direction of launching more activity around local economies. I’m tweaking a little article I’m just going to mail to any person or journal or newspaper I think might be interested.
You know I am eager to see your book but do appreciate the ardor of the work.
Bill Sharp
Time does fly. Thanks for asking. I've been working the garden (still have some late stuff coming out), working on my local economy idea, trying to get an article on the human potential off my desk, keeping one eye on the campaign and now both eyes on the economy. I've also been pondering the article on Hayakawa and Chase but now see that the most worthy book in the general semantics area gets the Hayakawa award. Since the article deals with their frictions with and criticism of Korzybski I think it might be too volatile, so it sits on the compost heap. I've also been doing some business development and grant writing for a little local engineering startup company. We just won three for three, submitted two more and now the new solicitations are out. Thank goodness I'm retired.
So how are you and how is the biography coming?
Bill
Actually, I'm an American who decided it was time for a change. I moved to NZ last December since my old job in Chicago was killing me. I started a philosophy class which lead to me cruising the web one day looking at meditation and language which lead to me finding out about GS. I'm really a novice at this but I'm looking for a group here in Wellington. Surprise!
This is probably a symptom of my age and the time when I was emerging from the chrysalis and became a 'butterfly'. It's the music I listened to in HS and College, when we still played records that came in albums with psychedelic covers. Remember them? 8-)
Brain Salad on your accordian?
Awesome!
I feel ashamed to admit that I never heard of Spock's Beard or the Flower Kings. I am familiar with Philbroid Studge though. Weird!
I followed Ralph Hamilton's lead, since he had some experience from Millbrook in 1948. I was the assistant at the Yale Seminar in 1948-1949 (winter).
It was my job to post the set-piece diagrams on the blackboard before the first lecture in the morning --although AK did some of the "boiler-plate" drawings himself, just the way he liked them. Then I recorded the lectures and took notes of the actual material covered -- since sometimes AK could wander for hours in reminiscences of his personal life (especially in his last year of life). At Yale AK was under a strait command from Kendig to leave the personal stuff alone. We were relieved that he "followed orders", because he could not have completed the seminar in the limited time otherwise.
At mid-day I would show AK my notes and check off any diagrams on the blackboard he had discussed. It was his call whether to leave the diagram alone or to return to it and "spiral upward another turn" if he thought he might want to discuss some aspect he had not touched on.
At day's end I did a complete recap with AK listening intently and asking questions. He had a very precise mind and remembered his performance in detail if I just gave him a bit of a reminder -- a very easy professor to work with.
When we returned from Yale he and I seem to feel a lot "closer", and he would sometimes stop me briefly when I was on duty and open a conversation with me. He had the habit of treating his young "assistants", somewhat like the (grown) children he never had. He was especially close to D. David Bourland -- feeling that he was "in loco parentis" -- or at least acting that way.
If you look at the main photo of the Yale Seminar, you will note that AK and I were the only ones in the whole group wearing "informal" clothes (no coat and tie).
no problem with translating the letters. Seems like an honor to me :-)
send a good scan of them to my e-mail and I'll get to it!
BFree
that psycho-ceramics
is for 'crack pots'
like me and you
to watch the daisies glow
or listen out the window
to the fountain waters flow
Maybe I could stretch my poetic muscles a bit,
They are a bit rusty as is my poor 'half' wit!
I'm not sure old Alfred could have approved of my non-A
attempts at my 'free will' cleansings, oh what a F***ing A
I could be in my times of indifference
Time binding and uses of useless inference
Well, it was all self indulgence anyhow,
And I think I traded it all in for some 'Holy' cow!
Now I'm huffing and 'puffing'
watching the daisies glow while the daze stuffing
and grow into the psycho-ceramic sunsets
that describe my ongoing weak attempts or bets
to load as many abstractions as possible onto
a battered and broken semantic differential..........gonetoo!
Yeah, my state is not that 'state',
but that state hoping to attain a 'clean' slate
before expiring or retiring into a well deserved void
.........of course! And so, 'meaningful' poetry, I avoid!
BFree
Yeah, you should be able to play the music!
In the back of my (LSD laced mind!!), I keep tracing threads of GS through what I read and listen to. There may be some scarcity of references to GS / Korzbysky, but They keep turning up in odd places...I'll try to reference them as I can remember or run into them in the future.
GS has been a good 'cleansing' experience for me and keeps me 'honest'! I certainly get 'slopy' in my language sometimes, but most of the Home Farmers catch me at it and bug me to no end! Guess that is hopeful or at least I feel like I've been thrashed by a semantic differential! (Did you know that the Semantic Differential could be used as a weapon!!!)
Shamah..........BFree
Hey,
There You are again,
Standing down below me,
Honestly believing that there's something you could show me,
While deep within your mind is what you give to me to know me.
And you don't know,
You don't know,
You don't know how young you are
Her eyes are filled with coral snakes
and liquid plastic castles,
Her daily life revolves around a thousand petty hassles,
Corny dogs and window panes fixed with silver tassels,
And you don't know,
You don't know,
You don't know how young you are
If I knew what's right for you,
you would not think about it,
And if I knew the truth from you,
I'd truly stand and shout it,
There's better things that you could be,
There is no doubt about it
And you don't know,
You don't know,
You don't know how young you are
You don't know (How young you are now)
You don't know (How young you are now)
You don't know (How young you are now)
You don't know (How young you are now)
(Thanks to Jed for these lyrics)
[ You Don't Know (How Young You Are) Lyrics on http://www.lyricsmania.com/ ]
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